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Author Topic: Bomberman Redux  (Read 37434 times)
Tezzatron
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« on: November 23, 2012, 02:10:23 am »

I could not find a thread for this, but if I glossed over one, Mods feel free to move this post to that thread.

I'm really liking how bomberman fits into this current metagame. This deck has a lot of control elements that allow to it to stabilize against a large field in StP (with snaps to back it up), trinket mage (for Spellbomb and EE) and the standard jace/drain package. However this deck also has a lot of consistency in closing out with games with Salvager or Vault key. Another essential element to the viability of this deck is the unique sideboard. Trinket Mage allows the silver bullet artifacts (graffdiggers, needle and tormods) to be much stronger in their respective matchups (Oath, Dredge, Gristlestorm, etc) and lingering souls seems insane against fishy or landstill decks. The stax MU might be tricky but with disenchants and snaps, along with basics, it shouldn't be that bad (lingering souls seems passable). Let me know if anyone has any critiques, thoughts or insights into the new and updated bomberman!

2 Auriok Salvager
2 Trinket Mage
2 Snapcaster Mage
Blightsteel Collosus
4 Dark Confidant
4 Force of Will
2 Swords to Plowshares
Vamp
Demonic
Ancestral
Brainstorm
Nihil Spellbomb
2 Flusterstorm
1 Mana Drain
2 Mental Misstep
Thirst for Knowledge
Time Walk
Yawgmoth's Will
Tinker
Time Vault
Voltaic Key
Engineered Explosives
Sensei's Divining Top
Jace the Mindsculptor
3 Tundra
3 Sea
2 Island
Tolarian Academy
Library of Alexandra
Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
Polluted Delta
Black Lotus
Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
Mox Jet
Mox Ruby
Mox Pearl
Mox Saphire
Mox Emerald

SB
Tormod's Crypt
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Steel Sabotage
Pithing Needle
1 Disenchant
2 serenity
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Lingering Souls
Plains
Hurkyl's Recall
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 12:56:31 pm by Tezzatron » Logged
Phele
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« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2012, 04:10:38 am »

Great, that someone has started a thread on that, as I like that build from the first look, but kept away from playing it, as I have several issues with it, you might help to clear up.

First of all and sorry to ask so directly: Why play this over UBR Confidant control? (UW Bomberman is different kind of thing, but here it is about the UBW Bomberman build which attracted a few people lately):

  • I ask that mainly, because UBW has one strong weakness against UBR and that is the matchup against Shops. Red has, in my eyes, the clearly better Shops hate in form of Ingot Chewer. You can play Disenchant and Steel Sabotage instead, but these are weaker. Shops is one of the three top contenders in the field, and you need some effective removal against it.

  • On the other side, I donít see a striking advantage white has over red. Swords can hit a few more creature targets (mainly Kuldotha, Goyf and Salvagers), Bolts canít, which on the other side can target Planeswalkers and opponents. This is a tie in my eyes. Disenchant is a nice extra weapon against Oath, but since Cage you donít really need Enchantment removal anymore.  And while white has a very strong tool against Dredge in form of Rest in Peace, black offers enough to effectively hate Dredge after boarding.

That for the colors: To sum it up, white has no clear advantage over red, but has one strong weakness which is very relevant in this meta.

Now for the combo Salvagerbomb against Tinkerbot: Is Auriok + Nihil Spellbomb so much better than Tinker + Blightsteel? Again, a tie at max I would say.

  • Blightsteel is nothing but a dead draw, thatís true, while Auriok and Spellbomb have both uses on their own (even though Auriok alone is just a pretty expensive 2/4). Auriok has good uses without the whole three parts of the combo (infinite mana or recurring Spellboms are good on their own) and the whole three-part-combo wins directly, while after Tinker you usually give the opponent an extra turn (even though, if you you would see it as a two-part-combo with Time Walk it wins directly as well).

  • But Tinker is a one-card-combo, and a pretty cheap and blue one, which can be found by Mystical as well.

You can say, that Auriok brings the whole Trinket package with it and how great this package is, which is somehow true. But it is not, that you didnít cut other very effective cards to find space for it. Mainly UBR Confidant control plays extra counters, Snapcaster, Hurkyls, Jaces, stuff like that. Most of them are Instants which is an advantage over the Sorcery speed of the Trinket package. I would generally say, that artifact solutions are more clunky than instant solutions.

What is nice, is that you seem to have a better Dredge game preboard. But is it really so? UBR builds already included Nihils as well and do two extra four-mana-solutions (Trinket + Nihil) really improve anything, when you donít play Mystical and Tinker instead?

Now a last question: Why play Vaultkey over Tinkerbot in this build?

  • Vaultkey is hit by much more hate, that can hit the Auriok combo as well, Null Rod, Needle, Revoker, while Blighsteel and Auriok are just hit by one spell at the same time: Swords to Plowshares. I might miss something, but this is my impression.

  • Vaultkey is better against MUD, as they canít really solve it and Metamorph is a very good answer to Blighsteel. But Tinker is much easier to get, than to bring two combo-pieces together, AND Tinker is another way to bring in other combo-parts and solutions in this build (Lotus, Spellbomb, Ö), while Vault does nothing on its own and Key has a few minor interactions with Top and Crypt/Ring.

That is it so far, thanks for clearing that up!
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Tezzatron
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« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2012, 12:08:51 pm »

Quote
That for the colors: To sum it up, white has no clear advantage over red, but has one strong weakness which is very relevant in this meta.

Having played bolt a lot in Vintage, I have come to like StP a lot more. The ability to answer blightsteel, gravetroll, gristlebrand, and larger creatures makes it the better removal spell IMHO. The comparision you make to UBR is interesting. I was actually playing UBR until I altered it slightly with the modifications above. I like having another combo in the maindeck, so when games go long (which the usually do), you can just drop a cavern and salvagers and get them.

Quote
Blightsteel is nothing but a dead draw, thatís true, while Auriok and Spellbomb have both uses on their own (even though Auriok alone is just a pretty expensive 2/4). Auriok has good uses without the whole three parts of the combo (infinite mana or recurring Spellboms are good on their own) and the whole three-part-combo wins directly, while after Tinker you usually give the opponent an extra turn (even though, if you you would see it as a two-part-combo with Time Walk it wins directly as well).

But Tinker is a one-card-combo, and a pretty cheap and blue one, which can be found by Mystical as well. Now a last question: Why play Vaultkey over Tinkerbot in this build?
I play both, which has been awesome. Tinker can get you the key, vault or lotus if you need to win on the stop with salvager, but I also believe every blue deck should sport tinker+blightsteel. The random games you will steel greatly exceeds the games it is awkward.

You can say, that Auriok brings the whole Trinket package with it and how great this package is, which is somehow true. But it is not, that you didnít cut other very effective cards to find space for it. Mainly UBR Confidant control plays extra counters, Snapcaster, Hurkyls, Jaces, stuff like that. Most of them are Instants which is an advantage over the Sorcery speed of the Trinket package. I would generally say, that artifact solutions are more clunky than instant solutions.

I actually think Trinket Mage helps the STAX matchup a lot. Instead of having durdely counterspells, having a body that comes down and finds a sol ring/mana cryt/lotus can be huge. Even in other matchups, the trinket package has been insane. As you mentioned, finding the Nihil Spellbomb against dredge, oath or dragon is very important. Finding EE against creature decks, oath or belcher is also very good. Post board, Trinket Mage becomes even more versatile, with the various hate pieces that come in. If you have any suggestions for better tutor targets, let me know!

Quote
What is nice, is that you seem to have a better Dredge game preboard. But is it really so? UBR builds already included Nihils as well and do two extra four-mana-solutions (Trinket + Nihil) really improve anything, when you donít play Mystical and Tinker instead?

It seems to be pretty standard to be moving away from Mystical. As the counterspells get better (misstep, flusterstorm, more emphasis on drain) mystical becomes a greater liability. I can appreciate its ability to randomly steal games, but with another combo (permanent based at that), I did not see the need. Perhaps it can be worked in. And perhaps you misread my list, but I do indeed play tinkerbot.

Quote
Vaultkey is hit by much more hate, that can hit the Auriok combo as well, Null Rod, Needle, Revoker, while Blighsteel and Auriok are just hit by one spell at the same time: Swords to Plowshares. I might miss something, but this is my impression.
I will concede this deck has an extreme weakness to Null Rod and Stony Silence. It is something we must figure out. And I do understand that all three primary win conditions are relatively vulnerable (bomberman, tinker, vaultkey). However, note that this deck is primarily a control deck. I often sit back with a bob or library and just play the permission game. Maybe the first 2 or 3 attempts to win are disrupted, but with your insane amount of card advantage and permission, you don't need to win the game in any timely fashion.

All in all, while it has many similarities, I think Bomberman is distinctly different (and better) than UBR control. Also, check out my sideboard. I've been wanting to play lingering souls for a while and think this deck really takes advantage of it. It is a powerful tool against landstill and fish decks that UBR can not harness. If you have any suggestions as how to better the STAX matchup, I am all ears!
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2012, 12:27:28 pm »

@ the argument that R>W for MUD match, I'd have to say that blue has hurkylls, which is probably better than chewer in a lot of cases, but white also has serenity, which is huge.  For 1W you can disenchant and kill an artifact, or for 1W you can kill ALL artifacts.  Serenity is a HOUSE against artifact decks.  It's shatterstorm, but half the cost.
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Tezzatron
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« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2012, 12:53:53 pm »

Love the idea of serenity. Changed the board: -2 disenchant -1 salvager +2 serenity +1 hurkyls (MD -1 drain +1 salvager)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 12:57:04 pm by Tezzatron » Logged
Phele
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« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2012, 02:24:44 pm »

I would have bet, that your list didn't include Tinkerbot, before you changed it. But if I did miss it, my fault. Anyway, most UBW Bomberman lists play Vaultkey instead of Tinkerbot, which is a fault in my eyes. Playing three combos is even worse, sorry to say so.

But you are right, that I missed Blighsteel as another relevant target for Swords. Troll is not relevant and swording Grisel is also a pretty bad idea, as he can draw seven in response and even knows that he will get extra life after responding.

You can't compare Hurkyls and Serenity with Chewer. Hurks and Serenity are both hit by all Spheres, cost one more mana and Serenity gets effective even one turn later than Hurkyl. This is definately not enough to constantyl beat Shops. You need some really effective single Removal, to even come into the game, which white lacks, and maybe then get to play two-mana-solutions.

The rest of may arguments stay as they are.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 02:36:11 pm by Phele » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2012, 03:59:58 pm »

I'm disappointed this wasn't a thread discussing Justin Kohler's UW Bomberman build, especially given its astounding success.  Would you be willing to discuss the merits of both color combinations?
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« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2012, 05:53:32 pm »

I would have bet, that your list didn't include Tinkerbot, before you changed it. But if I did miss it, my fault. Anyway, most UBW Bomberman lists play Vaultkey instead of Tinkerbot, which is a fault in my eyes. Playing three combos is even worse, sorry to say so.

But you are right, that I missed Blighsteel as another relevant target for Swords. Troll is not relevant and swording Grisel is also a pretty bad idea, as he can draw seven in response and even knows that he will get extra life after responding.

You can't compare Hurkyls and Serenity with Chewer. Hurks and Serenity are both hit by all Spheres, cost one more mana and Serenity gets effective even one turn later than Hurkyl. This is definately not enough to constantyl beat Shops. You need some really effective single Removal, to even come into the game, which white lacks, and maybe then get to play two-mana-solutions.

The rest of may arguments stay as they are.

You certainly can't compare the two as they do very different things.  Yes, chewer is easier to evoke through chalice and spheres, but it is a 1-for-1 pluck in the forehead against shops.  You successfully evoke chewer and kill their lodestone or crucible.  Great.  Now what about the other spheres, tangles, etc?  While hurkylls/serenity is a mana more expensive and affected by thorns, they are an absolute kick in the nuts to shops.  Golem, tangle, crucible in play?  Why choose, kill them all.  With hurkyll's, you don't actually "kill" the problems, but you can EoT it and make the opponent discard, then get an unmolested turn with all of your resources.  You can't come close to that with chewer.  You also can't cast chewer prior to tangle wire's tapping, which you can with hurkyll's.  Rebuild is probably too costly, but not hurkyll's.  I've won games where I built up a couple fetches/basics, took a few slugs to the face from golem, then EoT hurkyll's and went apeshit on them.  Can't say the same for picking off one lock piece during my main phase with chewer.
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« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2012, 08:54:57 pm »

I'm disappointed this wasn't a thread discussing Justin Kohler's UW Bomberman build, especially given its astounding success.

Agreed. I have never seen a deck be so consistent that you pretty much go into a tournament expecting it to be in the Top 8 every single time.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2012, 09:47:07 pm »

I'm disappointed this wasn't a thread discussing Justin Kohler's UW Bomberman build, especially given its astounding success.

Agreed. I have never seen a deck be so consistent that you pretty much go into a tournament expecting it to be in the Top 8 every single time.

It's not just the deck though.  If you watch Justin play, his play style is very unique.
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2012, 09:54:14 pm »

I'm disappointed this wasn't a thread discussing Justin Kohler's UW Bomberman build, especially given its astounding success.

Agreed. I have never seen a deck be so consistent that you pretty much go into a tournament expecting it to be in the Top 8 every single time.

It's not just the deck though.  If you watch Justin play, his play style is very unique.

Can you post a list for comparison so we can note the card differences?
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« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2012, 11:00:11 pm »

I'm disappointed this wasn't a thread discussing Justin Kohler's UW Bomberman build, especially given its astounding success.

Agreed. I have never seen a deck be so consistent that you pretty much go into a tournament expecting it to be in the Top 8 every single time.

It's not just the deck though.  If you watch Justin play, his play style is very unique.

Can you post a list for comparison so we can note the card differences?

Here is the list he won with last week...

First Ė Justin Kohler
ďRed Deck WinsĒ

2 Vendilion Clique
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Auriok Salvagers
4 Trinket Mage
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Flusterstorm
1 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Time Walk
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 AEther Spellbomb
1 Black Lotus
1 Engineered Exzplosives
1 Grafdiggerís Cage
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
2 Senseiís Divining Top
1 Plains
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Polluted Delta
3 Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand

SB:
1 Grafdiggerís Cage
1 Tormodís Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
1 Devout Witness
2 Steel Sabotage
3 Rest in Peace
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« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2012, 11:30:16 pm »

Wow.  That list looks really solid.  I think G1 it probably loses to MUD or dredge, but there's plenty in the SB to take care of those decks in the sb.  Looks unstoppable to me.  How many tourneys did this win did you say?
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« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2012, 11:55:51 pm »

Wow.  That list looks really solid.  I think G1 it probably loses to MUD or dredge, but there's plenty in the SB to take care of those decks in the sb.  Looks unstoppable to me.  How many tourneys did this win did you say?

I believe he's won 3 with this deck. But he has finished in the Top 8 with it at nearly every single event he plays in since he started running it. I think the last time I can at least recall where he didn't finish in the Top 8 was at the New York Grudge Match back in the spring. The deck, and it's pilot have been the model of consistency throughout this year in the NEV as well as the other events here in the Northeast (Bloomsburg, Clarks Summitt, and Harrisburg).
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Tezzatron
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« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2012, 12:21:57 am »

Why do you guys like the straight UW better than UWB? Is it just consistency and jace/drain combo? Bobs and tutora have been really good for me. And the mana has been a non-issue. I also like graffdigger and more trinket instead of trinker+BSC. What are the inherent strengths/weaknesses associated with either list?

Quote
Playing three combos is even worse, sorry to say so.
why? between tinker, vamp, demonic, trinket mage and the card draw, its pretty common to just nut someone. Also all the combo pieces serve multiple roles.

Quote
You can't compare Hurkyls and Serenity with Chewer. Hurks and Serenity are both hit by all Spheres, cost one more mana and Serenity gets effective even one turn later than Hurkyl. This is definately not enough to constantyl beat Shops. You need some really effective single Removal, to even come into the game, which white lacks, and maybe then get to play two-mana-solutions.
As of now, my post board configuration has 3 basics (with 5 fetches), 2 steel sabotage, 2 serenity, 1 disenchant, 1 hurkyl's, plus incidental cards. I could easily see this combination of cards beating STAX. Maybe it does not, but it deserves testing instead of theorizing to come to that conclusion.

If red is truly that much better than white against STAX (which I'm not convinced of yet) then I could see a UWR version with basic mountains post board.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 12:24:38 am by Tezzatron » Logged
psyburat
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« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2012, 04:27:00 am »

Why do you guys like the straight UW better than UWB?

Because a single pilot has top 8'd with it FOURTEEN times this year: http://morphling.de/search.php?type=1&restr=after&app=15&y=2012&sorting=DESC&m=03&format=True&d=30&search=Justin+Kohler&sent=1&advanced=1

Seriously, it is definitely the player too, but if his own ability only accounts for half the top 8s than you're still at seven results for the year, with not nearly as many for any other variants.  Statistics at its finest.
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Pokey
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« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2012, 11:28:02 am »

Why do you guys like the straight UW better than UWB?

Because a single pilot has top 8'd with it FOURTEEN times this year: http://morphling.de/search.php?type=1&restr=after&app=15&y=2012&sorting=DESC&m=03&format=True&d=30&search=Justin+Kohler&sent=1&advanced=1

Seriously, it is definitely the player too, but if his own ability only accounts for half the top 8s than you're still at seven results for the year, with not nearly as many for any other variants.  Statistics at its finest.

Lol.  Thanks for the props, guys.  It's actually ~17 though.  Started playing the deck in March, and I know of at least 3 events I topped that aren't posted on Morphling.

The OP clearly wants to play Esper Bomberman though, so we can talk about that, as I think it is a fine deck too.  It just happens to not be my playstyle.

First thing I would mention is that I completely agree with Phele about having "too many combos".  Need to make some room for more disruption.  Only 9 counterspells in this so called "control" deck?  Also, if you are playing at least 8 creatures, I have found Caverns to be better than Library all of the time, which is why I axed Library a long time ago.  That's all I can say about the main deck, as I haven't thought too hard about what an optimal list might look like.

There seem to be a few problems with the sideboard, most notably, not enough dredge hate.  I'm surprised that no one else has pointed this out yet.  You can't afford to skip on hate cards just because you have Trinket Mage, because you can't keep a hand that has Trinket Mage and no hate, because it will be too slow unless you play him on turn 1, which can't happen all the time.  This will likely lead to lots of mulligans and game/match losses.

I'm a huge fan of V Clique, but why in the sideboard?  I feel like this is a main deck or bust kind of card.  It's generically awesome all around, but I don't think it particularly excels in any specific matchup.  What are you boarding this in against and what holes does it fix in the deck?

Sorry, but I think you're going to have to keep waiting to be able to play those Lingering Souls in vintage.  Unless off course, you like tapping out main phase to make chump blockers (I know I don't).

The shops sideboard seems fine.  Let me know how Serenity works out.  I never liked the card, but sometimes feel like I dismissed it too quickly in testing.  Also, I wouldn't rely on snapcaster to carry you, post board, against shops.  I feel like you're either living the dream, or already way ahead if you manage to snap back ANYTHING.  Just one sphere makes it cost 5 just to recycle an StP.  Do you plan on being able to do this frequently?

Anyway, that's all I got for now.  Good luck with your deck!
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 11:54:06 am by Pokey » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2012, 09:49:27 pm »

Wow.  That list looks really solid.  I think G1 it probably loses to MUD or dredge, but there's plenty in the SB to take care of those decks in the sb.  Looks unstoppable to me.  How many tourneys did this win did you say?

I believe he's won 3 with this deck. But he has finished in the Top 8 with it at nearly every single event he plays in since he started running it. I think the last time I can at least recall where he didn't finish in the Top 8 was at the New York Grudge Match back in the spring. The deck, and it's pilot have been the model of consistency throughout this year in the NEV as well as the other events here in the Northeast (Bloomsburg, Clarks Summitt, and Harrisburg).

Looking at the list, with all the counters, bombs, aggro plan, and answers to everything, I don't see how it could lose, period.  It would seem that only bad luck would cause this deck to lose to anything outside of the mirror.

**edit**

I tested against this exact list (the one that won tourneys) 6 games.  G1 and G2 I won (I'm playing dark times) because the bomberman deck had to mull to 6 (as did I) and I had pithing needle for turn 1 jace, then had turn 2 hexmage/depths and UW didn't have FoW.  G2 I had pithing needle to stop aether spellbomb and hexmage/depths after pulling a couple counters with seizes.  G3-G6 I got blown out as UW dropped a turn 1 jace 3 times and a turn 2 jace once, with FoWs and missteps and just kept the counters coming until it could fateseal me to death with a clique for damage.  One game, the turn 2 jace, he got a turn 3 spellbomb/auriok, popped spellbomb to draw a card, and it happened to be lotus - gg.  Outside of this deck having to mulligan or keeping a hand with 0 counters (rare), I don't think it could be beat unless bad luck plagues the pilot.  I believe it has T8d 17 times, but I can't understand why it only won 3.  What deck is out there that can keep it from winning?  Did the pilot just have to mull and got bad hands?
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 10:23:19 pm by TheWhiteDragon » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2012, 09:46:43 am »

What deck is out there that can keep it from winning?

This is my personal favorite, but any deck that simply doesn't give it enough time to set itself up or ignores the disruption it happens to draw.
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« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2012, 11:35:25 am »

What deck is out there that can keep it from winning?

This is my personal favorite, but any deck that simply doesn't give it enough time to set itself up or ignores the disruption it happens to draw.

It seems the stony silence are the lynchpin there.  I think a couple of E-truths would benefit the bomberman list, either main or side.  Bounce the stony, then win.  Bounce a group of pridemages/tarm/etc.  Bounce Merit Lage or BSC.  Just remove any issue for one turn, then assemble the combo and perhaps counter what you didn't have the counter for the first time.  The deck doesn't use robot or snapcaster, so cages are dead weight.  Drains, snares, FoWs, missteps, counter almost everything in the deck.  Just drop an auriok off drain mana, EoT truth the silence, then drop lotus and win.  I just can't see how you'd "stop it from setting up" when its answers cost 0 or 1 or 2.  It's win costs 4, yes, but how do you stop them from hitting 4 mana with all those counters, fetches, and basics?

I've run it through a gauntlet last night and it seems like a tank.  Null rod?  Spell snare, no thanks.  BSC or Merit Lage? Plow - go farming.  Griselbrand or oath?  disenchant, snare, EE or pithing needle - no win for you.  Stony Silence? Snare or E-truth ( I ran 2 etruth in SB, but kept the other 73 the same).  Sphere, Golem?  Hurkyl's -> splooge on their face next turn.  Tendrils?  Misstep the ritual, snare the DT, flusterstorm th tendrils, GG.  Fish army? Combo for the win.

Just unbreakable, yet somehow broken.
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« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2012, 01:43:42 pm »

What deck is out there that can keep it from winning?

This is my personal favorite, but any deck that simply doesn't give it enough time to set itself up or ignores the disruption it happens to draw.

Mike, the finals of that tournament was actually the only time I've ever lost to Noble Fish, and I played against it alot back when it was popular.  It's actually a favorable matchup, I feel, but some of your unusual card choices that day gave you quite the edge against me.

Up until recently, the sideboard wasn't very polished, and I had a lot of problems losing to workshops.  It will never be a good matchup, but I think it is manageable now.

The problem of late, is that mono blue merfolk with Caverns/Vials is becoming a popular deck choice in New Jersey.  The matchup is quite terrible, and I have been beaten by it in top 8 for the last 3 NJ tourneys in a row.  Haven't quite yet figured out how to beat it consistently without sacrificing too many percentage points against "real" decks.

Echoing Truth seems like a fine card.  I'm just not a fan of bounce spells because I want to always be able to permanently answer problems.
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« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2012, 03:49:40 pm »

What deck is out there that can keep it from winning?

This is my personal favorite, but any deck that simply doesn't give it enough time to set itself up or ignores the disruption it happens to draw.

Mike, the finals of that tournament was actually the only time I've ever lost to Noble Fish, and I played against it alot back when it was popular.  It's actually a favorable matchup, I feel, but some of your unusual card choices that day gave you quite the edge against me.

Up until recently, the sideboard wasn't very polished, and I had a lot of problems losing to workshops.  It will never be a good matchup, but I think it is manageable now.

The problem of late, is that mono blue merfolk with Caverns/Vials is becoming a popular deck choice in New Jersey.  The matchup is quite terrible, and I have been beaten by it in top 8 for the last 3 NJ tourneys in a row.  Haven't quite yet figured out how to beat it consistently without sacrificing too many percentage points against "real" decks.

Echoing Truth seems like a fine card.  I'm just not a fan of bounce spells because I want to always be able to permanently answer problems.

Supreme verdict seems like it would crush Merfolk if you could find a way to put it in your 75, but thats a pretty narrow card.  For less narrow options have you tried moving swords to the main? 
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« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2012, 04:31:37 pm »

What deck is out there that can keep it from winning?

This is my personal favorite, but any deck that simply doesn't give it enough time to set itself up or ignores the disruption it happens to draw.

Mike, the finals of that tournament was actually the only time I've ever lost to Noble Fish, and I played against it alot back when it was popular.  It's actually a favorable matchup, I feel, but some of your unusual card choices that day gave you quite the edge against me.

Up until recently, the sideboard wasn't very polished, and I had a lot of problems losing to workshops.  It will never be a good matchup, but I think it is manageable now.

The problem of late, is that mono blue merfolk with Caverns/Vials is becoming a popular deck choice in New Jersey.  The matchup is quite terrible, and I have been beaten by it in top 8 for the last 3 NJ tourneys in a row.  Haven't quite yet figured out how to beat it consistently without sacrificing too many percentage points against "real" decks.

Echoing Truth seems like a fine card.  I'm just not a fan of bounce spells because I want to always be able to permanently answer problems.

Balance - kills fish and merfolk. Needle should shut down the vials.
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« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2012, 04:46:20 pm »

Moving StP's to the main is a reasonable idea, but if I have problems beating them postboard with 4, I doubt that having 1 or 2 in game one is going to make me win that, although it certainly helps.  Also, I don't really want to alter my main deck too much just to beat a rogue deck.

Funny thing about Supreme Verdict is that I actually considered it.  I eventually dismissed it though, not because it was too narrow, but because a double white mana cost requires me to fetch out non-basics against a Wasteland deck to cast it.

Already playing Needle.  Balance seems pretty good though.  Forgot about that one.
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« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2012, 05:30:59 pm »

Moving StP's to the main is a reasonable idea, but if I have problems beating them postboard with 4, I doubt that having 1 or 2 in game one is going to make me win that, although it certainly helps.  Also, I don't really want to alter my main deck too much just to beat a rogue deck.

Funny thing about Supreme Verdict is that I actually considered it.  I eventually dismissed it though, not because it was too narrow, but because a double white mana cost requires me to fetch out non-basics against a Wasteland deck to cast it.

Already playing Needle.  Balance seems pretty good though.  Forgot about that one.

I'd move the needle into the main in place of 1 sensei top.  You most likely trinket mage for the top anyway, and it can't be killed once it's played.  You also have 4 jace, so that's plenty of "top" effects.  A main needle lets you shut down vault/key, bazaar, etc. in game 1.  I'd also probably cut 1 clique for balance.  Cliques are nice, but balance is broken.  You don't run any non-jace card draw really, and while cliques effect is cute, it's not backbreaking like balance can be.  Two mana gives you a wrath and an additional out vs BSC.  I guess disenchants and plows give you enough answers to stony silence or BSC, but you'll have 1 extra sb slot with these moves too.

Not that your deck needs tweaking, but in testing, I like the maindeck answers and found that second top to be redundant most times.
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« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2012, 06:20:53 pm »

I'm always open to suggestions.  I'm surprised that you don't like the second Top though.  I like it because I see it in my opening hand more, which allows me to Trinket Mage for other cards more often, because I already have Top.  Also, I have a backup in case the first one gets countered.  Even if you draw both of them, which rarely happens, you can use a fetch to draw a different card.  I feel like it's a really powerful card that I always want to have in play.

I just remebered why I don't like Balance though.  I played it before, and it was either really insane or the worst card ever.  The card potentially affects me very negatively, because I often want to be hoarding counterspells and/or playing my own creatures.

I'll definitely change it up next time.  Not sure which cards yet.
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« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2012, 08:08:59 pm »

The problem of late, is that mono blue merfolk with Caverns/Vials is becoming a popular deck choice in New Jersey.  The matchup is quite terrible, and I have been beaten by it in top 8 for the last 3 NJ tourneys in a row.  Haven't quite yet figured out how to beat it consistently without sacrificing too many percentage points against "real" decks.

Yeah, that deck has kept me out of two top eights with UWb bomberman. The biggest problem is that all of your counterspells don't do anything and swords to plowesheres isn't that good either, since all of their creatures are basically the same.

Also cut yawgmoth's will its terrible.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 08:12:38 pm by Cruel Ultimatum » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2012, 09:09:57 pm »

The problem of late, is that mono blue merfolk with Caverns/Vials is becoming a popular deck choice in New Jersey.  The matchup is quite terrible, and I have been beaten by it in top 8 for the last 3 NJ tourneys in a row.  Haven't quite yet figured out how to beat it consistently without sacrificing too many percentage points against "real" decks.

Yeah, that deck has kept me out of two top eights with UWb bomberman. The biggest problem is that all of your counterspells don't do anything and swords to plowesheres isn't that good either, since all of their creatures are basically the same.

Also cut yawgmoth's will its terrible.

Pithing needles shut down the vials, which greatly slows their game and makes them play 1 critter a turn.  Balance becomes a good sweeper in that case, and should be, at the least, a sb card.  If it's continuously an issue, wrath of god is possible.  That's for UW obviously.  If you're running black, then there is a plethora of critter answers.
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« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2012, 11:59:51 pm »

The problem of late, is that mono blue merfolk with Caverns/Vials is becoming a popular deck choice in New Jersey.  The matchup is quite terrible, and I have been beaten by it in top 8 for the last 3 NJ tourneys in a row.  Haven't quite yet figured out how to beat it consistently without sacrificing too many percentage points against "real" decks.

Yeah, that deck has kept me out of two top eights with UWb bomberman. The biggest problem is that all of your counterspells don't do anything and swords to plowesheres isn't that good either, since all of their creatures are basically the same.

Also cut yawgmoth's will its terrible.

Cavern of Souls is as big of a problem as Vial. In fact, the good lists don't even run Vial.
Pithing needles shut down the vials, which greatly slows their game and makes them play 1 critter a turn.  Balance becomes a good sweeper in that case, and should be, at the least, a sb card.  If it's continuously an issue, wrath of god is possible.  That's for UW obviously.  If you're running black, then there is a plethora of critter answers.
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« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2012, 03:32:20 am »

with so many top / Jace effects, you could even consider runnig crap such as terminate you know which one, yes the terminus, which will become a wrath for  {W}, only slightly better to adress the creature issue.
It is not a very good card, but if you run many of them, you sooner or later can miracle one with top. Will need testing though.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 09:16:42 am by PETER FLUGZEUG » Logged

I will be playing four of these.  I'll worry about the deck later.
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